Sunday, April 16, 2006

Tapping Out, pt. 2

No, this is not a continuation of a previous post. It's actually about submissions in e-fedding, or mainly how no one likes to see their guy tap out.

But why does no one want to see their characters submit in matches? If I was going to guess any reason, it'd be pride, perhaps the deadliest of e-fedding sins. A lot of people don't like their characters to show ass; they want their characters to be presented in such a specific matter where if they have to show any kind of weakness, it has to be on their terms. Tapping out is usually never on their terms. And even guys who do know how to build a good program through showing ass don't like to have their guys tapping out. Either way, tapping out is usually equated to giving up or surrendering, and no one really wants their character portrayed as a quitter. They want to be portrayed as someone who keeps fighting to the end, and if they have to lose, they'd rather it be because the other guy did so much damage that he couldn't kick out of a pin rather than tapping out.

I used to be of that school of thought, actually, but recently, I did some soul-searching, some thinking, and I wondered... what the hell is the difference? Really, it's no big deal if your character taps out.

For one, in most instances, it's smarter for your character to tap out in some instances. Since all submission moves target some part of the body, in-character, your character could suffer some major damage to a vital joint, limb or organ if he can't escape and doesn't tap out. It's all about the realism.

Two, it's really not fair to folks who have submissions as their finishers, and if someone who is trying to build a submission as a finisher is the one balking at tapping out, it's highly hypocritical. Everyone wants to have their finishers be feared, be deadly. But if you have it so that your character refuses to tap, then you're sabotaging anyone who wants to build a submission hold as a finisher. Everyone deserves to have a strong finisher. Of course, someone playing Devil's Advocate could say that having more than one finisher is the solution, but we know not everyone is going to do that, and that's okay. Therefore, they need to be accomodated.

Now, there are some instances where having a character not tap is the logical thing to do. Like if your character is a giant freak of nature or a pain sponge or something like that. But then again, even they need to be able to tap out in some instances.

I mean, it's not that hard to swallow your pride, especially in e-fedding, where we're all friends for the most part, and where your heat is more elastic than what it would be if your character was a real wrestler.

But then again... real wrestlers tap otu all the time. And guys like Triple H, who find ways to keep their stroke in legit or underhanded ways, still tap out in the ring.

(And as an aside here... the method of having someone pass out in a submission hold rather than tap is old, tired and way overused, and it should only be saved for special occasions.)


Anonymous said...


Tom Holzerman said...


I actually pressed the submit button accidentally before I typed anything.

Now read this entry now that I've finished it!

Joshua C. Ray said...

This was well thought out. I've thought about this a few times and realized that it was true. Sarge has won a few matches now... I think he's sitting at 10 to 15 wins or something like that... only one is by his finisher, which is a submission. Meanwhile, people with non-submission finishing moves use their finishers to win matches a little more frequently.

At first I thought I might be upset if Sarge tapped out, but I thought about how hypocritical that would be.

My solution was to create another wrestler with a normal finishing move. :)

Anonymous said...

if people say that their wrestler never taps .. and this person isnt a huge monster type .. you know, the ones who are so jakked that you can't get their legs in a figure four without breaking your knees ... well, i still make 'em tap if it comes down to making the match more enjoyable.


Anonymous said...

No problem with people tapping - come on, Sting, Bret Hart, Chris Benoit, Ken Shamrock, et al, hardly killed the heat of their opponents by making them tap. Of course, they also had the ability to win matches by pinfall, but whatever makes sense for the match itself is fine. If anything, a rubber match could use a submission finisher to INCREASE both guys heat - in a huge, mega-blow-off match, having one guy stay in the hold for aaaages, and finally tapping, would show them to be a gutsy performer.

But if people are saying their character will never tap, are we going to see the Hunchbacks make an e-fed debut as a team that can't be pinned because you can't get their shoulders onto the mat?

BigDaddy said...

I agree with the premise in general, though I do think there is room to work with the idea in practice. For example, Hida added that he never taps in his profile for A1E. Unfortunately, the person writing his match against Jack Gilkison missed the updated profile, and Hida ended up tapping out. There was a long argument about this on the BC board (mainly between me and one other person) about how we should respect Hida's wishes and try to work with him. The other person argued that it was unreasonable to say he never taps. Might as well make a profile that says you never get pinned, or never wrestle guys in a mask, or whatever.

However, I considered it to be a choice the person was making with their character. While the idea of tapping to prevent serious injury is definitely a good one, there are some people who just wouldn't do it. You, in your character, can make that choice. I can't choose not to be pinned or not to wrestle against guys named Bruce or whatever.

At least that's the distinction I see.

Hyde said...

"Deep" was me, because I'm so cool =P

Some people are anal about their characters, and it pisses a fedhead off no end because it restricts (often needlessly) how we can handle things. "Never submits!" is irritating, but for some handlers it will seem justified. Pro wrestlers in real life often build a reputation of being invincible out of never having submitted, and a handler might want his fantasy character to do the same: to go his first two years without ever submitting in order to then be able to play the card of "Never Submitted! I'm amazing!" However, planning for something that specific so far in advance is often unfair on others and should be earned. A word to the fedhead and match writers that "I'm trying to build something out of never submitting; when I lose, could it always be by pinfall please?" is alright, but if they then no-show a match... having them tap seems fair game to me. Favours work both ways.

Dan West said...

Too me having a character thet never taps out would be more of a character liability than a benefit.

Look at it from an MMA standpoint. Fighters don't necessarily tap out because they are in more pain than they can possibly bear. They do it because they have been caught in a hold from which they cannot escape and if they remain thus they could risk serious - perhaps career ending - injury.

It is a strategic choice to tap out because one's career is presumably more important than a victory in a single match.

I can see some instances (say the blow off of a blood feud or a amtch involving a character that is clearly insane) where it might make sense to have a character go the no submission route, but by and large if a guy is trying to get his character over as a submission wrestler it would be grossly unfair to have every always refuse to lose that way.

If a handler insists that their character will never submit regardless of the hold or the foe or the situation, I (as the potential fedhead) might ask them if they would rather have their character miss significant chunk of time as they recover from all the assorted breaks and joint injuries that they might possibly incure because of it.

IMO - it's just a slight step below stating that my wrestler will always fight to the death and will never admit defeat while there is still an ounce of breath in their body. Okay - cool- just understand that means if you lose, you're dead.

Jamar said...

I actually enjoyed the idea of 'tapping out' (Thanks TAZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ) and it's induction into western wrestling. the three-arm fall and ring the bell style of counting submissions was always hard to sell, and tapping seemed more graceful. The shit hurts, I'll tap out. There's less problems with that, as opposed to say, passing out from the pain.

People need to get over themselves.

Beast said...

I agree with Jamar, and with JA's post in general. For the record, I was the one arguing with BigDaddy about people never being able to tap out. I think it's nothing more than a pride/ego thing. Beast has tapped out tons of times, and gee, he's had enough heat to win two world championships. Like mentioned above, it's easy to explain away a tap - you tapped not because you couldn't take the pain, but because you didn't want a broken limb. Tapping isn't the end of the world, people - just the end of a wrestling match.

Anonymous said...

This is a basic principle of wrestling psychology. Faces don't tap (often), because they lose heat as a result. Usually a lot. But heels don't lose heat if they tap; if anything they gain in heel heat, or can parley their reaction into same.

By the same token, heels should not have submission finishers, barring they are the type character that avoids confrontation with real opponents in favour of nameless scrubs, and/or use henchmen, distraction and other cheap tactics to bolster their submission application (Horsemen style).

Most of the format for pro wrestling shows comes down to similarly binary rules, even in the modern, relativistic WWE. But, maybe such simple and obvious logic doesn't suit the literary aspirations of fantasy wrestlers...