Friday, June 12, 2009

Wah, wah, I got sand in my e-box

One of the things about retiring from active e-fedding is that I really don't have any accountability to anyone anymore, so I don't have to watch what I say... well, that's a lie. I don't want to alienate people, but really I don't have to work with them either. That's why you shouldn't unbookmark this thing. In addition to Project Discovery Channel, I'll still have some goodies up here, mainly me reminiscing, ranting, raving or doing the fantasy-fantasy booker thing. Even if RPing isn't fun anymore, talking about it sure is!

And boy, do I love talking about things. Why else would I have started this if I didn't? Sure, I had the news and show-opinion hookup, but I really started this just to ruminate on abstract concepts and trends (or as Katz once said, comparing the pros and cons of kumquats). I wanted to talk about things that I liked and things that I didn't like. Today, I'm gonna talk about something that probably pisses me off the most of anything that can piss someone off in e-wrestling - publicly carrying on about results.

I had to deal with this in a BIG way back in 2007 with the WfWA's petty bitchiness about how their guys finished in the TEAM ToC. Honestly, if you were around for that, and most of the readership here was, you knew how big a clusterfuck it was. If not, well, basically it boiled down to that entire community pretty much bitching me and my judges out because their guys didn't finish 1-2-3 in the ToC. They blasted guys like Nova, Tchu and Ravager midcarders. The only person who was gracious about the whole thing was Christian Light's handler, and that was because he placed 4th. I was accused of playing favorites, only inviting them to make "my circle" look good (which was ludicrous because at heart, my "circle" is A1E, and the final didn't even have a FW-related handler in it), demanding privately that I give "valid reasoning" for why I ranked them so low, and then arguing with it when I gave it. It was a nightmare.

It would be nice if the people "buying into their own shit" was limited to communities that didn't have prior working relationships. The more things change, the more things stay the same. Honestly, I would have expected better, especially since the miserable in this situation was from the PTC circuit, but then again, the last time there was an all-out e-fed meltdown, it happened from someone who came from the FW/A1 side of things. It goes to show that there are assholes on both sides of the coin, right?

But just in case you've been living under a rock, which I admittedly have been doing for a couple of weeks, someone else, the handler of Chris Bagwell, just went off about losing in his TEAM Invitational Tournament match. It was in response to a light-hearted blog post by Billy Ferrero. It degenerated into basically the guy named Shane (why do all the people who blow up go by that name?) and all the FW heavyweights, Russo, Brunk, even Shinder himself. I responded too. It wasn't nice, and I'm not going to be nice here.

Basically, the worst thing you can do is bitch about your match publicly. For one, you're a bad sport if you do it. Why you'd want to be immature and ruin something that's supposed to be fun by throwing insults and accusations around is beyond me. Two, you put the booker on eggshells. You make them think that they're not being fair, and then it skews the results in the future. More future results are in doubt now because the booker is possibly influenced by your bitching. Three, it causes massive public dischord and people are then repulsed. Why should someone go to a place where people aren't happy with results?

Basically, what this Bagwell guy did was damage the integrity of TEAM. Even though I've retired and handed the keys over to Shinder, it still pisses me off that someone would have the gall to submarine the integrity of a place I helped build, especially over something as trivial as a tournament match. Here's a fucking newsflash. This is a competition. People win, people lose. This isn't a circle jerk. It's also subjective. One man's offal is another man's feast. If you lose, oh well. Put your big boy or big girl pants on and deal with it.

Am I saying you should be happy with losing? No, that would be hypocritical of me. I don't like losing, and there are times when I take it pretty hard. There were several times that I looked at a match result and I thought that there was no way I should have lost. It happened most of the time when I was up against Housefly in A1E battling for the A1E Championship or against Trip X in EPW. Did I complain about those losses in public in a way that was accusatory to the people deciding the matches? No, I didn't. I vented to friends, I inhaled and exhaled. I got over it, and I realized that the A1E voters and Brunk had their reasons for their decisions. And in the end, I was cool with it, because let's face it, it's not like Housefly or Stevens are slouchy characters, nor are their handlers bozos. They're two iconic characters handled by two talented men.

Why this prick can't realize the same for his match is beyond me. Why he couldn't have just vented to his friends who would have sympathized with him, I don't know. Why he couldn't have just left it to the PMs he sent back and forth with Shinder, I have no clue. But he had to go and take his beef public. What does that accomplish? Who does he get to rally to his side? The FW people who've been there before with the WfWA fiasco? The people there who've been in internal FW OOC dramas? People who actually thought that Duke Williams beat him, Duke Williams, who is handled by Al Larcher... hardly the picture of a FW stronghold? Please.

He says he's putting TEAM on ban. Yeah, okay, that's really going to hurt the fed. Seriously, TEAM doesn't need him, and really, if he's going to react to losing that badly, he doesn't need TEAM, because his blood pressure would rise every time he lost a match in TEAM. This game needs a lot fewer self-important douchebags like him and more people like Ryan Aston. Here's another guy who was unhappy with his loss in the first round of the same tournament, but outside of an offhand reply to the blog post in question, he took it in stride. That's the sign of a guy who gets it.

In the end, this isn't serious business. It's a fucking game. If you can't have fun playing a game, then you need to get your head checked. If you can't take losing to the point where you think it's a vast right-wing conspiracy if you don't win, you should hang up the e-boots and take up needlepoint, because this isn't for you.

In closing, Katz, I don't think you ever thought kumquats could get this vitriolic, could you? ;)


Ross said...

Heh... if Shane reads this, he'll probably also complain about being labeled "from the PTC circuit". Last I saw he's not particularly fond of PTC :)


TH said...

Ha, yeah, I read PRIME is on his ban-list too. I wonder why that's the case? But the truth's the truth. GCW has historically been a part of PTC. It's not officially affiliated now, and Ben and you are kinda estranged, but it's still traditionally or at least tangentially related.

Anonymous said...

lol I've lost a ton of matches and I don't particularly care about that. Losing isn't the issue. The issue was extending deadlines in a TOURNAMENT where the deadlines were clearly defined merely to accommodate friends so they didn't no-show.

If you don't have time for a tournament, don't sign up. All the rest of us had no problem putting aside time to write for that. Quite frankly, it took away from other writings I was doing at the time.

And again, the loss isn't the issue. Its the fact that the judge told me SPECIFICALLY that he picked me to win and even gave me feedback on the roleplays. Then the decision was miraculously overruled.

When I tried getting information on it and feedback as to why I lost (I enjoy constructive criticism), my PMs were ignored.

Lastly - I have no problem with PRIME. That's an in-character opinion to put Bagwell over as heel. Most of the PRIME guys are/have been in GCW and I've worked with them perfectly fine.

How about we stop making comments without all the facts.

- Shane aka Chris Bagwell

TH said...

So one judge voted for you? There are three judges per match in the TIT. Standard protocol. You just happened to talk to the one judge who voted for you. And again, it's not like you ran circles around Al. It was close.

It's oh-so-nice that you've decided to be cordial now, but the way you carried on on Billy's blog, you deserve what you got. And frankly, you're talking to someone who has way more eW connections even in retirement than you'll ever have, so I hear things from every angle possible.

The fact is, you lost and then you carried on like a three-year-old on Billy's blog. I saw it with my own two eyes.

Anonymous said...

Eh, you caught me on a good day on the other blog I suppose.

Standard protocol is three judges, yes. But let the records show they were strapped for judges and so some matches had two and even one judge, provided there was feedback.

I know because I helped judge the second half of the first round. Betcha didn't know that ;)

As far as "having more efed connections than me." I started roleplaying in 1996. Just because I may not have been in your little 'circuit' doesn't mean I didn't exist. As a matter of fact, I ran a fed of my own from 96 - 03. I know the politics.

But I'm not about to ensue in an e-muscle contest with how many e-wrestling people I know.

That's just..well..stupid.

I don't care that you blast me. Go right ahead. For my out lash, it is well deserved.

All I ask is that the homework is done first.

TH said...

The point wasn't to whip out my e-peen. It was to show that I've heard the story from all angles. I read the posts. I know what's going on.

And regardless of how "right" you felt, you still went about it the wrong way. Seriously, what the fuck were you trying to accomplish blasting the TEAM judges in public like that? Have you ever been a fedhead? Have you ever felt that kind of public backlash? If you did, how did you feel? Doubt you liked it, and I doubt it was good for the morale of the fed.

The fact is, outbursts like that are uncalled for and they never have positive outcomes. Period. If Shinder et al. were unresponsive in PMs, then you ask publicly, you don't blast publicly. If they don't give you an answer... BFD, it's a game. The sun will rise tomorrow if you don't get the desired answer you want out of a fucking game.

Anonymous said...

If I feel ambitious, I'll go find the thread where I asked publicly if my concerns could be addressed.

I followed every step you outlined - and to no avail. So it was more or less a matter of time before I outburst against it.

I lost in ToC when you were operating TEAM, didn't I? Did I bitch? Did you hear a peep from me? No, all you got were compliments on having a well-run, well-structured tournament.

Again I stress - know the facts.

TH said...

Dude, I don't care if you didn't bitch in the past. I don't care if you exhausted all your avenues for recourse about finding out about your result. I care that you blew up publicly about an event that you didn't win. You can make all the excuses you want, but you sitting here and laughably telling me that I need to know all the facts doesn't excuse you from publicly blowing up about an e-fed event. You don't do that in my book, period. I don't care what the circumstances are. You man up, you take care of it in private whatever way you see fit.

But you don't blow up in public. I'm sorry, but I don't need to "know all the facts" to stress that.

Dave said...

Seriously, please just leave TEAM on ban and go away.

God man, three judges. Maybe Shinder will just come on here and tell you who the other two judges were so you'll just SHUT THE FUCK UP. JESUS.

So YOU know, I personally do absolutely know all the facts on who judged you. The other two voted against you. BOTTOM LINE.




You're the exact sort of douche that makes people leave the hobby.

So one last time, PLEASE... I BEG OF YOU. Put and leave TEAM on ban. Put and leave every fed on FW on ban. Put and leave everything that I have anything to do with on ban and SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Get the sand out of your fucking pussy and GO... AWAY.

Deadline extensions...

Not replying to PMs...

It's like I'm playing with my sister's fuckin' kids or somethin'.

Anonymous said...

Very mature response, Dave. I intend to.

Anonymous said...

Somewhat off-topic, but something about the concept of having sand in one's pussy cracks me up.

neweraofwrestling said...

this is why i stay in the comfy confines of fwcentral.

Dave said...

Thanks, Shane. Because I was trying really hard to be MATURE. Glad to be here for you to give me my maturity lesson.

If all it takes to make you go away for good is for me to be as immature as possible, then allow me to say....

You are a great big poopy head. (fart two times)

And a most SINCERE thanks - for letting me know you intend to stay away. I'll sleep a lot better now.

Chris said...

I can count on one hand the number of times this game has gotten personally really uncomfortable for me...

...and the WfWA fiasco was NOT one of them. >=)

I still have fond memories of me, you, Katz, and Lindz swooping into the WfWA forums in Flying V formation to serve 'em up tall icy glasses of Shut the Fuck Up.

Lindz said...

Just like the Mighty Ducks, we were.

Anonymous said...

I'm not entirely convinced that lashing out at Shane somehow presents TEAM in a better light. Especially given the questionable judgment of some recent TEAM matches and whether or not your judges are even reading the matches at all.

So hey, I can see why you'd be defensive. I would be too if my name was attached to that clusterfuck.

AM said...

This is just about the worst thing I've ever read in this hobby. Blog post and comments. Jesus.

Get a grip.

WBFIII said...

The only thing I didn't like about some of the replies to my blog-post were that they were done 'anonymously'. Now this may strike you as odd, given I allow people to reply anonymously in the first place. That's fine; I'm not disputing their right to do so, but do recommend that in cases where they air such a contentious view that they also sign their name as most tend to. Just a recommendation though; I'd rather get anonymous replies than none at all.

As for the content of the replies, specifically Shane's, I will take some responsbility since I made the original post. In Shane's defense, it's not like he made a thread on FWC throwing TEAM under the bus. He replied to something I started, so perhaps he should be cut a bit of slack from that perspective.

As Tom noted, my post was light-hearted, and as I've said before, it was NOT meant to inspire a litany of complaints against bad judging, etc. However, it's not like I put a disclaimer on the fuckin' thing, lol. As most were able to discern, my post was just an attempt at humor using over-the-top feigned anger. In fact, my posts that week all included a line or two where I gave TEAM shit for stupid things, the way I give Katz shit or Brunk, or Chad, or just about anyone on's not intended to be taken uber-seriously.

Yeah, I had legit problems with the way some of the matches were judged, but it really wasn't a big deal at all. Again, the post was an over-exaggerated version of an opinion I had. I talked with Shinder over PM and we had a really good exchange. Hell, I might even wind up judging a future TEAM match! And to show what a nice guy I am, I'll tell everyone which match it is, why I judged it the way I did, and invite the loser to bitch me out on my blog. :-) Seriously, bitch me lube! LOL

Shane definitely got a little carried away with his complaints. I generally don't have a problem with people discussing the outcomes of their matches, whether that be positively or negatively, but there's a way of doing it and perhaps he stepped over the line a bit. It got to the point where there were like, 15 anonymous complaints and it left us wondering, "OK is this a fucking mob of angry TEAM-mates or just one guy?" That's where signing your name can be a bit helpful!

Bottom line, I think it's OK for people to show a bit of frustration now and again, given how hard everybody works...but when it comes off like a crusade against injustice, that's when it goes from being legitimate to ridiculous. Hmm...maybe I should have labeled my blog post: "The Comedy Central Roast of TEAM!" lol

Dave said...


I was blunt enough that they feel sorry for "Shane" now.

Well, I still don't.

He got the backlash he deserved for being a pot-stirrer.

He went about EVERYTHING the wrong way, and the hobby is better off without people like him.

His opinion? Not being happy about losing? That's fine. The way he went about just about EVERYTHING???

100% wrong.

And if you don't agree with that? I don't care.

And I'm not waiting til I retire to say that.

Anonymous said...

My stomach hurts. :-(


WBFIII said...

LOL, I agree with you Dave! He has the right to his opinion but went about it in the wrong way...nothing I could disagree with there.

I just feel bad on my end because I started the original post that initiated all this bullshit. I feel like if I didn't make the post, maybe it wouldn't have got to that point, that's all. Call it white man's guilt, or uh...white man's FW guilt? lol

TH said...

Billy, don't feel bad. Like you told me, it's your blog. You write what you feel. We all have control over our own actions.

Anonymous said...


In no way am I upset about losing. I don't know why you guys continuously read my posts and take out of them what you want and then disregard everything else I say.

What I complained about was the fact that I lost despite a judge telling me I won. When I asked for feedback, both via the forums and PM, I receieved NO RESPONSE.

What other way should I have went about this? I waited 3 weeks until I said a thing. The only judge that even acknowledged me said that I won the match.

My complaints were the terms. They were unclear and my requests were NEVER answered.

Since, however, I've talked to my judges and we're all fine with what happened.

I think you people really need to take a second and examine what you're talking about. Firstly, I've been roleplaying consistently since 1996, therefor making me the furthest thing from a newcomer. Secondly, I ran my own fed from 97 - late '03. I know the politics game. Just because you may not recognize a character name doesn't mean that person isn't a veteran. And, to be honest, that makes you the idiot.

And, for the record, I judged 2 matches in the second half of the first round. Shindler can attest to that. So obviously my bitterness never came from the loss.

For the 10,000th time. Say whatever you want about me - I encourage it. BUT PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU KNOW THE FACTS. You're the one who looks like the asshole otherwise...

Not me.

(let the comments roll in on that one )

-Chris Bagwell aka Shane aka I'm not creating an account with this thing so I'll continue to use this Anon. feature