Tuesday, February 07, 2006


I was talking to Katz last night, and he was kinda lamenting the fact that no one besides myself and Bobby Nickens (Chris Storm, Joe Average, Guy Boudreaux) post on the NFW fan board anymore. No one really has the rah-rah spirit in NFW. I agree with him, actually. Honestly, it doesn't affect me as much as it does Katz, because as long as people continue to RP and send in segments, I think the fed's doing fine.

But as a fedhead, I can see why Katz wants more. I mean, I always crave feedback when I post TEAM happenings and cards. Plus, the more discussion you have, the better your OOC atmosphere is. I mean, everyone wants to have OOC harmony (or something close to it). But when no one's discussing things, it almost seems that you have that harmony because no one cares. While I honestly think that everyone who's in NFW cares about the fed, I also must point back to when I said that perception is reality. And if it's perceived that no one cares, then folks will think no one cares. Then things like considering shortening the regular season or cutting some roster fat start being considered. Then folks come out of the woodwork.

But if you think about it... who on FW does have that "rah-rah" spirit? I mean, the CSWA doesn't have an active fan board when the fed is active. WFW is the same way. So is NEW unless it's Sean trying to jumpstart conversation with the show status threads or by letting us know how he's doing in real life. The only fed that has an active OOC board by standards is EPW, but even EPW's board isn't that active by objective standards.

But what it does have it can probably owe to the infusion of either new, eager talents like Josh Ray or Scott Franklin, or the fact that so many A1 guys are there, and the A1 feds have always had active discussion on the OOC boards.

The other FW feds? They all have the P* standbys who've seen it all, and maybe that's a reason why they'll join a fed, but they really won't say anything on the OOC boards, because they may feel that what's been said has already been said before.

If you look at it, NFW has a good amount of those FW standbys. And they also have a lot of guys from the EWN and PTC circuits out West. I don't know why they don't contribute more. I'd like to speculate but I can't find a reason.

So that's my take on it. Honestly, this is one thing that I can't really diagnose as anythign else but the base of handlers getting older and not being replaced by younger enthusiastic guys. I mean, the youngest member of the NFW roster is probably Lindz, and they have a few guys on there in their thirties. They got other stuff to worry about than posting to the OOC boards.

So yeah... if anyone else has an idea, I'd be more than happy to entertain it, actually.


Anonymous said...

Not getting feedback is one of the things I think some of us older guys miss. I can remember last year at different points Gethard would post a RP in *insert league here* and a day later I'd catch him on AIM and he'd be down that nobody marked, or fired back. That he wasn't drawing heat. I had to tell him that at least in conversations i've had with people on AIM they bowed down for his stuff.

While I disagreed with some of the teabagging negativity...it would've been great for the league had it been blasted on the boards.

We're all so used to posting in our blogs, or really, commenting to each other in IMs...that a fan board comment is considered going the extra mile. I mean, you really have to do something noteworthy to get people to mark out on the boards anymore.

But then...how many of us completely read the shows? Read most of the rps?

I gave Dove good feedback for a narrative rp he posted last month because I thought it needed to be said.

You could post a "Seahawks or Steelers" post..and it'd be read by more people than responded. That laziness carries over to the leagues as well.

I guess the question is...what does we'll say Katz for example want? Just fan board activity? A "hey guys last week i saw the 40 year-old virgin and it was sick." I geeked out to a "how would you have done Star Wars differently" note and got no response. Maybe that was for the best though :P

Do you want just idle chatter? Or comments directed at the league? If that's the case what's are the limitations? Do you want Stanton saying "Steve's lost his mind, and has teabagging fantasies of his own?" or "the idea that barbed wire rips through a man's eye lid in a West match is insane." Do you want me saying "Didn't care for this, but liked this."

If we're going to ask for full disclosure...I think that could be good for the league. Take the good with the bad. But, if this is just about waving pom poms...consider..maybe you're not doing enough to get the home folks out of their seats.

I'm all for board posting. I just don't want to feel like a jack ass when I say doing a tribute to a dead Hogan is kinda too silly for my tastes. I think the fear is if we say everything we hurt feelings.

When you're 15 and on Prodigy it's easy to say, "Dude that card was awesome! I'm a geek!" We think we're better than that today.

If we consider ourselves here to some degree 'writers'...then yeah let's post the good and the bad....but do so in a constructive way. More feedback would be great.

Responses to my Star Wars geeking would be as well.

I'm with Katz. We're too lazy.

Anonymous said...

I agree that feedback would be VERY beneficial in any league going. To hear "this was good" "that was good" "I didn't like this" or even "what's going on here?" or "I don't get it" would be beneficial to anyone.

Plus, it would give forum whores like me, who refresh FW, A1E and EWN forums every 5 minutes to look for new posts something to read. There's another problem:

I see a lot of people BROWSING forums, but never posting. Maybe it is, as has been said, apathy. Then again, it could be people not wanting to get "flamed" for posting something that might be apparent to everyone, and thus causing un-needed heat where people seem to be "on edge" with their writing.

Maybe that's just me.

Either way, it's always nice to see posts about what's going on with people OUTSIDE of the wrestling stuff, and get to know each other a little bit better. At least, for me, it gives me insight on to why a character is written a certain way.

I think we've created the community and "family" (of sorts) where free form OOC posting SHOULD occur, but doesn't. Like I pointed out, there's plenty of people BROWSING, but not very many POSTING. Maybe they're just reading the latest league IC postings, or whatever. Who knows?

To get more people involved in the OOC banter, though, it's always a good idea to make them feel involved OOC. Chat mediums like MSN and AIM are a great way to meet people in the communities OOC, and might be a place where the old, salty dogs that have been around forever can bring in the newer handlers to the OOC turmoil.

Of course, you also have the cliques that have arisen over the years, and some people seem (even some of us old guys) feel intimidated by trying to "break into" the groupings of elitists, fed heads, and OOC friendships that already exist.

I think it's less of an issue of getting people to participate, and more of an issue of inviting people to participate.

My 2 Cents.


Lindz said...

Bobby's younger than me by two months (insert devil smiley here.)

I'm going to go drown myself in Melville again.

HAHAHA ENGLISH MAJOR HUMOR! (No, really, shoot me now...)

Phil said...

I think this blog has fostered more OOC discussion over the past six months than A1E has had in its lifetime. Maybe it's just needing somebody to be the first to come out and say something. Maybe other people aren't willing to risk sticking their neck out to say what they think. I'd really hate to think we've fostered any kind of environment where feedback of any kind if punished.

That said, I live for feedback. I love getting it. Good feedback is always preferable, but sometimes the bad feedback is necessary. It's my choice to do with it what I will, but I will never turn it down.

Tom Holzerman said...

If you find a white whale, let me know. I lost mine.

Jeffrey Paternostro said...

I don't disagree with this. Yori is such a difficult character to write for, that I often wonder if anyone is interested in or disgusted with what I am doing. But outside of like thirdhand comments on AIM, I really have no idea.

Anonymous said...

-People want feedback on what they're doing.

-People are afraid to give feedback because of potential backlash.

-Non positive feedback is usually met with a rush to defend, rather than listen...or just accept as a difference of opinion. For the most part, these public instances are very silly to me.

All public negativity on the Melton/Windham stuff came from Eastern Conference handlers that admit to reading zero to one percent of Western Conference shows. Except for Jeff P. on his blog, who sounds like he read the whole show.

I saw the whole Beau Michaels/YYJ counterpoint coming a mile away, and somehow in all of it -- The OSS/DRS wasn't what angered people in the least. That really made me laugh.

-Script writing vs. narrative writing -- anything written in narrative, I've found that staunch script styled writers often times deem it boring, stupid, unrealistic or non-entertaining. Whereas I know narrative writers roll their eyes about all the 'trash-talk' aspects of the script-styled writers.

This is something I don't foresee ever ending. Its quite unfortunate. If there's anything about this season I've learned, don't bother trying to change the other side's extreme supporters.

It might be shitty of me to say this, but I would say that right now -- if a narrative Western Conference writer won the Ultratitle...that had no prior CSWA/NFW ties...a whole lot of people would think I'm stupid for doing it.

Whereas there'd be way less negativity/backlash if the Eastern Conference Champion wins it.


All in due time I suppose.

-People can get complacent and apathetic dependent on their surroundings. Especially if your fed gets into a certain groove/mindset.

Has the seasonal structure been a success? From a management/we've been able to say we've done it -- yes.

However, I don't think its good for the rah-rah atmosphere you're originally discussing in this topic due to the amount of turnover and lack feuds developed in the fed. At best, you've got 2-3 per conference, but we've got about 30-40 handlers. The current schedule makes it tough to sort that out and its also pushed me to make alot of decisions I wouldn't make in a different atmosphere.

That's why I'm already planning for the future with a different concept in mind...I think the competition is top-notch in NFW and this was a great way of showcasing it and letting that grow...but in terms of the handlers getting "rah-rah" about things; it might not be the 'best' setup. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe as we wind down the second half of the season...the influx of activity and less turnover will bring a more festive environment to the fed. Week 8 and Week 9 will probably determine alot of NFW's future. I'm not closing down, but you always want to keep your rah-rah guys closer than anyone else.

Dave said...

>>"-Non positive feedback is usually met with a rush to defend, rather than listen...or just accept as a difference of opinion. For the most part, these public instances are very silly to me.

All public negativity on the Melton/Windham stuff came from Eastern Conference handlers that admit to reading zero to one percent of Western Conference shows. Except for Jeff P. on his blog, who sounds like he read the whole show.

I saw the whole Beau Michaels/YYJ counterpoint coming a mile away, and somehow in all of it -- The OSS/DRS wasn't what angered people in the least. That really made me laugh.<<

See, this makes me laugh, Jon. :-)

Because I had one paragraph out of a MUCH longer blog entry on how I didn't like an angle that YOU SHOWED ME - and I had 31 responses and was at one point accused by you of taking "two lines out of it and turning it into a bigger deal" and also "discrediting my opponent" and "discrediting the voting system.

You didn't respond by discussing or defending. You responded by questioning my right to complain (saying I only read two lines) and then accusing me of undermining the very fairness of the league (discrediting my opponent and your voting system).

And then, it gets played off like it's funny. Har har.

To me...this example is EXACTLY why more people don't speak out.

Because it's just not worth the damn hassle.

Anonymous said...

I just reread the blog entry. Maybe you should too.

I still stand by my first response there, and don't really feel its that bad or that disagreeable with your feelings on the angle or your blog entry.

What happened after that was a misunderstanding, was it not? Or am I imagining things?

Mike Stanton said...

Speaking out just leads to fights, and gets people's panties in a bunch.

I prefer feedback to be done in private in IM's or PM's then on the board. Back on P* Jamar had a habit of posting a mark out in reply to an Rp from a person in UWA. Which I always felt put their opponent behind the 8-ball, I mean, when the Prez is publically endorsing your opponent's Rp, what chance do you have?

As for commenting on stuff, Dave's right, if you don't like something you get smacked down for being a hater...Steve sent me the teabagging match and I read it, I hated it...Now I'm told I have to read every NFW West Card to be 'allowed' to hate it...

I'd have hated that spot if it was in the East, West, LVW, CSWA, or anywhere...There is no 'context' where I would enjoy that spot ever.

I read the OSS/DRS match, and really it was just trying to hard, it seemed like it was just pleading to be edgy and controversal...I mean, a buncha fried chicken and lynching comments and I'm supposed to be offended?

Now that I think about it, how is this supposed to work, I mean honestly, I'm not allowed to be offended over the teabagging, but I MUST be offended by the DRS/OSS match?

paul k. said...

The 10 comments above are the reason I'm not a fan of the OOC board - bitching starts up, people get cranky, not good all around.

And really, in this age with just about everyone having an IM service, I don't see how a separate board is needed when a lot gets discussed in IM and those random chats Tom always starts up that die in 10 minutes. Needing to repeat the same exact thoughts on the message board only for the sake of having a permanent record when just about everyone C+Ps things saved in IM all over the place is a bit ridiculous.

We've got one up for LVW, but really I don't care two bits if anyone posts in it. Most of the feedback Mike and I get are via IM, and Tom's blog here.

In fact, the "inside joke", I guess you can call it, between Mike and I is wondering how long it'll take Holzerman to post a blog entry pimping the hell out of the latest LVW card ever since he marked so hard for Card 1. :)

Tom gave some criticism of the last card, Mike and I replied, it was good. We know everything isn't going to be perfect for everyone. Mike and I have disagreed on things as all fed-heads do, and there's stuff I'd do that Mike's irked by and stuff he comes up with that doesn't thrill me. It happens.

To me, a greater concern is the overall lack of RP I see on the FW board for matches. Referring to RP leagues here, obviously.

Mike re-assures me that "that's just how it is these days", but my mind in FW terms is wired to the P* ways of old, when matches got RP'd to the f'n gills - like midcard matches having 12 replies RP. So when I see a match get 2 RPs, one each, total, it screws with my head, but apparently, "that's how it is these days", and to me, THAT is the real concern, not some silly rah-rah board.

To me the amount of RP done is equal to the interest in the league. In fact, I get annoyed when people put up posts in the "OOC" board but then don't put up an RP for... ages. Irks the shit out of me.

(This is the point where Katz wonders where my RP is for Week 7 - and where I write that I've been reading the old cards to catch up so I know what the fuck to RP about. Anatoly will have his Stoli out tomorrow for public consumption, I promise.)

Dave said...

>>"I just reread the blog entry. Maybe you should too.

I still stand by my first response there, and don't really feel its that bad or that disagreeable with your feelings on the angle or your blog entry.

What happened after that was a misunderstanding, was it not? Or am I imagining things?"<<

And I didn't reference your first post, did I? I references the one where I shouldn't have replied if I only read two lines, and the one where I discredit Jeff and your voting system. The rest was misunderstanding, yes. And that's why I didn't reference it in my post.

But then again, Stanton's reply here said everything I wanted to say anyhow.

Dave said...

>>"I just reread the blog entry. Maybe you should too." <<

Sorry, missed this part.

I did re-read it. Once again, it was one paragraph out of eleven that I counted. And that's taking out miscellaneous one liners.

Clearly, we do not agree on the on the matter of who has the right to disagree.

But a simple solution is to no longer send me small snippets of a conference that I don't read. That way you won't have to hear my unlearned critiques on spots that I hate after reading only zero to one percent of the show.

It's too bad, too. Because I've been sent pieces of West shows that I loved. And I'm pretty sure when I said I liked them no one thought "he only read two lines of the show, he has no right to say it's good".

I think that's the point behind all of this.

Nothing personal.

Joshua C. Ray said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Joshua C. Ray said...

There are some times in a week when I can only think of one decent RP for a match. I'm the type of person that doesn't feel it should be totally back and forth all of the time... unless it's a pretty serious feud.

With all of my responsibilites, if I RP'd more than about 3 times in a week, I would probably never get anything else done. Maybe I'm just not any good at it, I don't know.

Anonymous said...

I think we all need to learn to give and take constructive criticism better. Comments, board comments, or more thrown in IMs would be fine if done correctly. I had no problem with what Dave or Mike said to me. I sent Mike the link because I thought he'd mark. I wanted positive feedback to something I was proud of. I thought the match was good work. Mike's first comment was, "See this is why I hate the West." But that's Stanton. That's fine. It didn't hurt my feelings or make me want to block his AIM sn. We spent 30 minutes or so debating our thoughts. More or less, it was fun. I thought his take was crazy, and he thought I had closet brokeback dreams. I enjoy the fact that I wrote something he didn't agree with and he said as much. It wasn't personal. I was kinda shocked that it didn't go over to anyone but me, Jon, and Gregg apparently...but that's writing. After the card posted...a day or so passed and Lindsay PM'd me with "and the outcry to the teabagging grows..." So..yeah maybe I hit Brunk's blog a little defensive as in, "was it THAT bad?" but...I think my argument on Brunk's blog was on topic. He didn't attack me in his note, I didn't say "Dave YOUR stupid! shut up!" So, a day later when i checked to see the replies to my reply..i was a little stunned to see Katz playfully trying to calm us down, and in IM's Brunk asking if I was mad. I thought the points laid out on all sides were pretty tame.

I think it's all in how you say it. There was probably a better way for me to get my point across about not being hyped about the Dead Hogan tribute.

I'm not saying we have to walk through rose petals.

I just think the idea of not giving feedback because 'people will go home crying' is weak, when there's not feedback being given to things people DO like. At least not enough of it. I'm not saying every match or RP i write I want people in IMs or on the board marking to me, or nailing me to a wall...but...a happy medium. I'd prefer not to go weeks/months with no reaction to my work. Makes this a FW trip a bit more lonely. As if writing isn't already.

Nobody really marks out to me in IMs unless I prompt them. So, I don't buy the "writing on the boards would just be for a permanent record." Unless i'm the only fool not getting mass IM feedback, I don't see it being done. It's not asking much if you read a card to reply with your thoughts. It helps everyone all the way around. But, after our work is done/turned in, we're mostly just lurkers. A more active board community would be cool.

For fedheads...when members turn in matches, segments, are you giving feedback? Or just taking and inserting into the card? If i turn in a match for a league I'd prefer to get some reaction. "Solid match." "nice spot here." Anything. "Need to rework this." Let me know that you read it. We'd all like feedback on everything we did. Bottom line, all the way around it's not being done enough.

The issue to me isn't negative feedback isn't worth posting. It's we've all have our corners we return to, and rarely venture out of. The NFW West/East dictomony is a great example. I'm guility of that as much as anyone.

Don't be afraid! Hit the boards. Drop a note every now and then. Cherish the love. Etc. Etc. A more active board will translate into more rps...more work being done for the league. But, now, mostly we're a fly by night..."oh when's the deadline again? Right. ugh."


Anonymous said...

Another 2 cents...

I agree that league prezes shouldn't mark out on the boards for RP. Then you're left wondering, "Why hasn't he marked out to me? Man i SUCK!"

And...Paul K. and Stanton both at least on my end have a done a great job of letting me know what they think of Hans and my rps. Again...I respect the teabagging hate from Stanton, mainly because he's given me props for things i've written that he has liked.

Jamar said...

Since somebody dragged my name into this, I don't really remember going "I'M MARKING OUT!!!!111" for someones' post all the time (I know GG did that alot, but he wasn't the Prez), I DO remember possibly C&Ping a line I thought was hot and saying "LOL" or what-have-you. Some sort of 'nice one' comment. Not saying I never did either way, but damn. All of the guys in my leagues should have been beyond unchecked paranoia. BUT MAYBE I WAS WRONG. ::CUE UP: Ominus Music::

In any rate, I think that when I ran UWA, we were all on the same page and if I remarked on something, that wouldn't collide planets and SQUASH A RP CYCLE. "OMG, He said he liked that dood's RP, what's the point now - life should end".

That's small, and I think I shouldn't have to defend myself as a Prez. I think I earned my respect at this point.

Since day one of trying to run a league, I've always tried to be fair and do what was right for the league, so people should have taken my comments as just that - not a match-killer. I was just giving someone a nod.

But take what I say with a grain of salt - what do I know. Your Mileage May Vary :)

It's whatever.

Mike Stanton said...

'I thought his take was crazy'

That in-ring sodomy sucks...

Man I must be old fashioned...

(Waves cane around)

What's funny is I just brought up this blog topic to somebody in IM's...And they said "Why post OOC notes? We all have AIM"

And no it wasn't Paul.

Beau Michaels said...

Needs more Beau.

paul k. said...

"Nobody really marks out to me in IMs unless I prompt them. So, I don't buy the "writing on the boards would just be for a permanent record." Unless i'm the only fool not getting mass IM feedback, I don't see it being done."

Well if you'd get out of ghost mode, honey buns, I (and others)'d be able to mark out more for your RP in IM.

Yeah, I saw your second thing re: Hans. Speaking of which, we need RP for your match on this card. :P

Anyway, I... well, I've read and heard about all this tea-bagging shit, and now I'm reading the match for myself, and... um, uh, what's the big deal either way?

Melton getting his face stuffed into Troy's trousers?

Is that any different from Steven Regal kissing Vince McMahon's bare ass?

This is what happens when you people do C+P in IM badly and only ship off two lines of a card all over the place instead of giving the full context. People always, ALWAYS, react to the first snippet and that's it.

I don't think I'll be able to find a line here in Vegas giving odds on whether or not the H'Wood PG-13 line was part of the passed around C+P.

Dave said...

Well, he gave me a snippet - then he gave me the full context after I reacted negatively. I still didn't like it. LOL

It's just personal taste, fellas. It happens. You guys will hate something I write before long, I'm sure. It's all good.

I don't recall disliking a West spot in the past based on something like this before. Usually my lack of interest in the West comes from just not "getting" narrative in general. It's all a taste thing.

And Jamar, did Katz tell you he ALMOST got me to do an irreverent reply to Saafir's post? LOL

Tom Holzerman said...

Yes, there is AIM, but a) not everyone has AIM (in this day and age, I don't know how you can't, but people still subside without it), b) not everyone ISN'T on privacy and c) we have a propensity not to talk to people we either don't like or don't really talk to a whole lot.